Erin Patten (00:03.513)
Okay, y'all, I have a confession to make. I've spent real years of my life trying to become a better version of myself. More organized, more optimized, more healed, more fit, more healthy, more purposeful. And somewhere in the chaste, I realized that the chase itself was the thing draining me. Not my calendar, it was the becoming. Today's guest wrote a whole book about this exact pain point.
I mean, I run transformation programs for a living, and she's about to tell you to stop trying to transform. But stay with me, y'all. There's no contradiction here. There's actually a doorway. My guest today is Barbara Burgess, author, mother, executive, and in her words, not mine, an unapologetic dark chocolate lover.
She founded Courluma, Core for Heart, Luma for Light, and it's a Chicago-based consulting firm. She wrote and performed a one-woman show called The Extraordinary Experience of Being Ordinary. And her first book is Enough: Finding Peace in a World of Distractions, Hustle, and Expectations. I am so honored to welcome Barbara to the Meta Business Millennial Podcast. Welcome, Barbara.
Barbara Burgess (01:21.794)
Thank you, Aaron. I'm so delighted to be here and so excited about this.
Erin Patten (01:26.113)
Yes, me too. And it's just so perfect because our conversation just like coming into the podcast today was just like spot on for that intro and for welcoming you. And I just want to start with your business. You call it Corluma. And I would love for you just to share with folks listening here what does that mean to you? Where did that come from?
Barbara Burgess (01:49.826)
Yeah, I think I was an accidental entrepreneur, you know. somebody had suggested it to me and I had stereotypes about what you had to do to be that, and it was things I didn't align with. And, you know, but thankfully a network of folks who are like, no, no, no, no, you could do it your way. And so, like any entrepreneur was doing, I was thinking, what am I gonna call this, you know, piece or whatever? And, you know, there's so many people that sit on URLs that anything you think that makes sense has already been taken. And
Erin Patten (01:53.967)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (01:59.685)
Right.
Barbara Burgess (02:19.374)
But I really did kind of this deeper soul searching about what do I want this to be about? Like what really matters to me, you know, a at its center. And I wanted it to be an umbrella. I wanted to be something that allowed, and I'm gonna say, particularly, I think for women, you know, we live in a society that sort of tries to define us too much. And
Erin Patten (02:41.788)
Mm.
Barbara Burgess (02:43.018)
What I realized is like I don't know, like I'm a shapeshifter. I have no idea what I'm going to be next week. Like the re I would love to have a tattoo. The only reason I don't have a tattoo is there's nothing I can commit to that I can promise you I'll be loving in a year from now. You know, because it's like who I I'm always discovering myself. And so I was like, it this has to be an umbrella for something. And then I thought, what really matters to me and what do I do? And it doesn't matter like if it's consulting, if it's coaching, if we're talking spirit, it doesn't matter if we're hanging out like
Erin Patten (02:49.102)
Apart.
Erin Patten (02:55.845)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (03:12.224)
it you know, for me it is that heart space, like a heart focus, a heart center. you know, to me that's where spirit and God lives. And so I'm not like that is gonna be in my business, right? And then the Luma aspect is like what I love to do. I love to solve things. I love to shine light on things. I love to bring to truth to places, including myself. I love to bust myself on my own BS and habits and all those things, right? And so it was really like these two pieces came together in a way that has just worked and clicked.
Erin Patten (03:35.618)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (03:41.452)
Because it it gets at the essence of what matters to me. And what I love is, you know, I'm five years in now, maybe more, and it still holds. You know, I've done such a hodgepodge of things, but it's still true because it's the essence and the core.
Erin Patten (03:55.185)
Yes. And even to me, just in my morning meditation, I always imagine like a beam of light shining from my heart. I'm always like, let my light shine from my heart. Like I am a unity of light is like what I say. And so when you talk about like the heart light, the light of the heart, like that's exactly what our ray and our inner soul kind of not necessarily the seat of the soul, but it certainly is a p a place where we really shine our light. So I think you're right. It's just so universal.
Barbara Burgess (04:21.752)
Well, and I think I teach a lot of emotional intelligence also and we're we're so ignorant, like we keep discovering things, right? And so there's really amazing data and research showing that, you know, we used to think that we kinda operate out of our head and then our head tells our body what to do. That's actually not true. You know, that there is a brain in the heart, but the heart also originates things and communicates them up to our head. Same thing with our body. The more recently I'm leading more into the body intelligence and sides just because of things I've
Erin Patten (04:39.053)
Exactly.
Erin Patten (04:45.284)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (04:51.626)
experience myself where my body knew something before my head knew. And there's research about that that, you know, your body knows something two to seven seconds before your head does. And so I think our whole orientation, you know, again for me growing up, it was about cognition, IQ, you know, can you intellectually figure something out? Well, that's not where my magic is. It's never been there. It's this knowing that I can't define and translate all the time, but I still know. You know, it's the wisdom versus the knowledge, right?
Erin Patten (04:55.073)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (05:01.582)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (05:17.504)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (05:20.16)
And so to me it's it's honoring and I I do believe like, you know, the better we get with science, we'll be able to measure these things in a more meaningful way. I know like the Heart Math Society does some of that as well, but it's a powerful, powerful instrument.
Erin Patten (05:27.843)
I agree.
Yeah.
It is very much is. Okay, so you climb the corporate ladder. You know, I will walk through it for people who don't know your resume, but there's Nestle, there's Granger, the Mark, your COO. I want to take you take I want you to have us take us back to the version of you who was still chasing and climbing climbing this ladder. Like take us back there. What was she chasing for? Like what was her reason to tetra, you know, what was her reason for this?
Barbara Burgess (05:39.019)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (06:01.228)
Yeah, yeah. external validation, you know, I could put it under a number of categories, right? But but really that sense of looking outside myself at its core to be okay, right? And and I think this is true for all of us. Like we all really hunger for that, but I was scrambling. It's like I even remember, so you know, I'm I'm graduating college and they had company in the I got Nestle from an on-campus interview.
Erin Patten (06:05.282)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (06:28.024)
But I remember my sorts, like interviewing with all these different companies and things and thinking what would look good on the resume, right? Not like, did I want to be there? Could I add value? What would I discover and learn? But would it look good on my resume? Like that resume at that point in time was a piece of paper that would tell you if I'm important or not. It wasn't about me feeling important. It was about that piece of paper telling you. You know, but after that, it became about building that paper then. Everything, and again, we're no longer allowed to ask salary history, but at that day you could.
Erin Patten (06:33.307)
Yeah.
Yeah, yes.
Erin Patten (06:44.132)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (06:48.666)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (06:57.676)
So it was like, was every job more money? And did every job look like I was taking something on more important, et cetera? But none of that had anything to do with me. Right. And if you, if you played it like if we were living in my body at the time, it was empty, scrambling, you know, you couldn't even rest in a victory because you, you know, you'd all there was always somebody doing it better. You know, there's always someone thinner, cuter, wealthier, all this kind of stuff. And so, you know, what it was like was like this constant.
you know, jittery sort of never really present in my body moment, never really getting to exist because I'm so scrambling to be important, right? by all these other measures. And and you can't ever, you know, you're not gonna win all those games anyway. They're games and you're never gonna win them all. And so that you're always I guess always not enough, right? You're always in the space of, you know, somewhere I don't measure up. And so
Erin Patten (07:31.163)
Mm.
Erin Patten (07:46.864)
Right.
Erin Patten (07:55.364)
Right.
Barbara Burgess (07:56.586)
You know, I didn't understand how much my decades of my life have been about like living in an unsettled nervous system. I j I literally didn't know that till the last like couple of years. And it's sort of blow away to me that that's even an option, that you don't have to you know. Yeah.
Erin Patten (08:06.639)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (08:10.286)
Right. Right. Right. And I love that you name that because I was I'm totally that I was totally that too. And particularly, I mean, I went to Harvard. I have two masters from Harvard. Like everything I I actually got turned down by Harvard and got into Columbia for grad school, but then wanted to reapply because I just felt like Columbia wasn't even good enough for that piece of paper.
Barbara Burgess (08:37.506)
You need that Harvard name.
Erin Patten (08:38.838)
I'd need it that hour. And it is it is hilarious to me now, just who I am today. Like most people that meet me probably don't even think I graduated college. Yeah, yeah. But it's just like it's just
Barbara Burgess (08:53.838)
Which takes the pressure off at a level.
Erin Patten (09:02.918)
How badly I needed it then and how useless it is today. And not to say it's useless, but it certainly doesn't define who I am. And and I just in and to that point about the nervous system too, I think we we get so the comfortable in this uncomfortable space. Like it is actually more comfortable for people.
Barbara Burgess (09:05.037)
Yes.
Yes. yes.
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (09:24.798)
Ugh A wait, we have to pause and triple under. Amen. We get comfortable in this uncomfortable space. Like, hello, mic drop. That that was like I became familiar with what was not good for me. And familiar felt better than new, even if new was better.
Erin Patten (09:32.43)
Erin Patten (09:37.669)
Yes.
Erin Patten (09:42.019)
Yeah, exactly. And and and we people fear that which is new and likely safer for them and rebel against it and tarnish it and taint it because it doesn't have that chaotic, you know, fear-based frequency. And and so and yeah, and I and of course I had my my lessons in that too.
Barbara Burgess (09:59.16)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (10:05.454)
I f I feel like I'm still a baby in the other world, to be honest. You know, it's because because it has been the last couple of years. What's interesting is like, and I don't know if you feel this too, but sometimes you just catch yourself almost like the temptation of that or a thought pattern that will go there. And I'm like, that's interesting. Now that feels unfamiliar. That feels weird to be like defining myself that way. But you know, you get into certain spaces, particularly if you're energetically sensitive, right?
Erin Patten (10:11.553)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (10:23.438)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (10:33.484)
That you like, you can walk into a room like, these are all those people in that mode. Like, ooh, I don't, I don't enjoy this. I don't belong here. These aren't my people in space. And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. It's just I no longer allow myself to be in the spaces that don't nourish me at this different level, right? Like if you come, you're coming at me with your elevator pitch, like, I'm probably walking away, you know.
Erin Patten (10:37.998)
Yes. Wrong here.
Yeah.
Erin Patten (10:52.152)
Yes, yes.
Barbara Burgess (10:59.126)
Not that I don't want to discover you know who you are, et cetera, but if I can feel that competitive kind of here's where I climbed, I'm like, ooh, yuck.
Erin Patten (10:59.238)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (11:07.61)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. And I really want you to talk about avoiding the seduction of self-improvement. And actually, this is kind of like the theme of today's podcast is the seduction of self-improvement. Like that's how we started, literally before we even hit record. And and you know, seduction is very strong word. Of course, it has like the sexual intimate connotations, but it is so real.
Barbara Burgess (11:15.778)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (11:19.19)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (11:25.208)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (11:32.568)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (11:37.048)
As it relates to the self-improvement, you know, I would say industry that we live in today. Yes. And so, you know, why is the urge to fix ourselves always on top or sorry, always a trap, excuse me? And why is it not like a virtue?
Barbara Burgess (11:41.91)
Yes. Billion billion dollar industry. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (11:55.842)
Yeah. Well, first of all, and I I just love what you said at the beginning too. Like I'm someone who teaches transformation workshops, but it isn't, it isn't contradictory and we'll we'll talk about that. But just for my own, you know, awful credibility, I worked for a self improvement organization for 22 years, right? And that I would now look at and call a cult. I mean, you know, if I look back and characterize it appropriately for what it is, right? Because so it's not like I'm somebody who's
Erin Patten (12:05.147)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (12:11.343)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (12:24.012)
you know, doesn't believe in theories and ideas and things that can benefit us and contribute to our lives. But what I discovered for myself is that was just one more flavor of what we were just talking about. Right. And I didn't understand when I was in it how incredibly disempowering it was in the framework that I was approaching it in. So just like, gosh, got to get that Harvard degree, got to get the next thing, got to get the bigger paycheck, et cetera. It's like, I got to get more conscious.
Erin Patten (12:36.933)
Right.
Barbara Burgess (12:52.524)
I gotta get more present. I gotta get more spiritual. I gotta float. I gotta dudah. I gotta do the yoga. I gotta have the best meditation. And if, my God, you know, I might be in a personal, you know, improvement class and we're both meditating and I'm thinking, they're probably doing it better than I am. and they they just shared something that was far more spiritual. I mean, it's the same thing. It is that same unsettled nervous system, right? And and when you get right down to the core of it, like I'm gonna go to my spiritual beliefs right now, like I don't think that's what God, love, life force, whatever you're gonna call it, cares about.
Erin Patten (13:21.072)
That part.
Barbara Burgess (13:21.368)
I don't think they're gonna be like, hey, you know, end of days. We're you know, meeting at the pearly gates if you b you'd believe in that. Hey, good job on that meditation. Boy, you've levitated, we're gonna high ten you, check, you get an A plus, like, I don't think at all. Because my purported beliefs are that we're loved no matter what. We're loved exactly how we are, we loved exactly in the space that we're in. Well, if we are, what am I what am I doing? Why am I running so fast to prove myself?
Erin Patten (13:44.048)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (13:47.61)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (13:47.914)
Again, but proving myself through a self-improvement lens, right? And so to me, it's and it and it is just the same as career in the sense that it doesn't ever mean you don't explore things or discover things or take a class or read a book. I still do that. I do it constantly. I do it because I love to learn. I do it because I love learning about myself. I love that discovery. I love meeting people through their insights and things like that.
Erin Patten (13:51.546)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (14:07.75)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (14:15.17)
But that's different than a need to improve myself, right? And I think about these like, can we live with the mature cognitive dissonance of I want to keep modifying, discovering, exploring, and I don't need to do it at all, right? Like these things can coexist. These two things can be true. I get, I get to go lose weight and be muscle bound and kick ass and do a backbend at 85. I get to do that.
Erin Patten (14:18.501)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (14:31.396)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (14:44.502)
If that feels like that would bring me joy and delight and things like that. But I don't have to because all the other 60-year-old, 70-year-olds, 80-year-olds are all of a sudden improving. Right. And I think it's such a a big distinction that we never pause on. And if we're not careful about it, we are just feeding the beast, you know? And and that's where I feel and you can feel it. And I know because of the industry you've been you've had the same experience. So, you know, I traveled around the country with an author for a while who was, you know, was back in the
Erin Patten (14:53.914)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (14:58.286)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (15:01.806)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (15:13.454)
2000s, early 2000s, who is in that field. And so some of these big names and stuff you'd meet. And I would go, you'd meet some big author that you've always looked up to, write a book. And then I'm like, why do I feel like I need to take a shower right now? Why do I feel disgusted, repulsed by this person? Right. And because this is not someone who at their core is discovering, sharing, loving, all that kind of stuff. This is someone who is in the industry of personal development. And
almost could use those things to be emotionally manipulative, contriving all those kinds of things, right? So the, you know, wherever we are, there we are. It's not like, the good people are in the health and wellness industry and the bad people are in corporate greed. No, no, no, no, no. You know, we're all everywhere. And so for me, it's it can be just as much of a trap. It can be the thing that sucks you in, no different if you don't pause to say, what's my driver here?
Erin Patten (15:47.684)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (16:10.04)
Who is the me that's exploring this? And I this is like a constant dialogue in my head, even today. Like, wait a minute. Like yesterday I was picking out an outfit to wear. And I was like, are you picking this out because of the friend you're gonna go see? Like girlfriend of mine who always dresses impeccably, has high fashion, all that kind of stuff. Or does this feel delightful to put on your body? Like I was in the habit of dressing to match the person I'm gonna meet. And then I I stopped, paused, and picked something else, you know?
But it's like, is it coming from my true unique delight, fingerprint, joy, which is what I believe God Life Force created us to be here with? Right. I'm not supposed to be like anybody else. So then why am I comparing myself to everybody else? Right. And so I think we're kind of blind thinking that personal growth, personal development can't be just like one of those other things. Like you gotta watch it. Like, what are you doing it and why? And and I'll say, you know, repeating the I thought.
Erin Patten (16:52.12)
Yeah, yeah.
Barbara Burgess (17:06.582)
I thought my job was then to be more conscious, not make more money. Like, no, that's not my job. My job's just to be. Period, full stop, end a sense. With all the mess, with all the chaos, with all my imperfections, with all the stupid stuff I do, with the beautiful stuff I do. That's it. You know, which is disturbing to that old gal who knew how to operate by chasing.
Erin Patten (17:13.894)
Mm, yes, yes, I love that.
Erin Patten (17:31.51)
Yes. And and honestly, I I resonate so much with everything you share because it's like, yes, you can be pursuing it all and at the same time, as Jesus would say, you need not do nothing. Or scripture would say, need not do nothing. And that's exactly, you know, the space that I we shared before kinda like are moving into and very actually uncomfortable in needing not doing nothing.
Barbara Burgess (17:46.445)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (17:59.596)
Yes, yes.
Erin Patten (18:00.99)
And that that is the space of surrender. That is the space that where God really wants to hold us and nurture us and and give give to us. Yet we just aren't used to receiving because we're used to having to perform and shuck and jive and kiss ass or earn it and work hard for it.
Barbara Burgess (18:16.812)
Yes. And earn that thing we get. You know, not just receive it, earn it.
Yeah.
Erin Patten (18:25.206)
And you know, God forbid, you know, other people killing for it, you know, and that is it is it is so acceptable to have that kind of mentality, to kill it. That is literally a phrase, is to go out there and kill it. And people don't even realize what they're saying.
Barbara Burgess (18:28.461)
Yes.
Barbara Burgess (18:44.514)
Yeah. I'm just now as you're talking, I'm going through it's like killed it, crushed it, da da da. It's all these like destructive sort of ways of looking at success. It's like a lens of success that actually causes harm, as if that's what we should aspire to. Yeah.
Erin Patten (18:50.072)
Yes, yes, yes.
Erin Patten (18:57.498)
Literally, literally, literally. Killing is the ultimate harm. And so, so like all that to say that self-improvement certainly can be a trap in that way. And what we're arcing towards and what this you know this platform is about is really just shining a light. And it's there's always like let's I always like to caveat, this is a no-judgment zone.
You know, we are here to just explore where we're at, where people are, where the collective is, and how we can just do better. Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (19:32.728)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think to that point, like, you know, at least for me and my my values evolve over time, but more and more it's like it's really about keeping that integrity with myself. Right. It is not to what you even just said is not mine to judge, point fingers, et cetera. There are so many things I have judged in my life until I was in that situation and I thought, dang, girl, you were wrong. You were just wrong and you were standing up there. Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (19:44.175)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (19:52.068)
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, but it's even about the no judgment of self too. And I want to be clear about that because that's where the judgment starts. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (20:01.65)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I think to this point, I was talking with you before we got on about this walk I took. and one of the things that was coming to me, just about what you were saying about the that space of the discomfort of receiving almost right. What I was recognizing in my little God chat was, you know, and what was coming was kind of like, listen, the vacuum vacuum is a beautiful thing. Like right now there's pl
Places and spaces in my life where there's an emptiness and an openness. And my old habit was to fill that, right? To fill that with again, it could have been a career achievement early on. Later on, it would have been a personal growth of achievement. And I was just being with God in the space that I'm like, I'm uncomfortable being in this open field, this undefined thing, right? And again, the words that kept coming were like the the vacuum is beautiful because without it we can't attract in. Without it, we don't.
Erin Patten (20:36.31)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (20:58.242)
have that pull for what could be, right? When everything's cluttered, then it's just repeat rinse and repeating the same way we've always been. And I woke up with that this morning. Cause I don't know if you ever have this happen, but sometimes you wake up and it's not just like, wait, what day is it? It's like, who am I and what reality am I in? That was today. And I was like, wait, who am I? And I caught my glance in the mirror and I literally had this thought inside my head that was like, no, like that's that's not quite right. And not in a judgy way at all. There was no like criticism about it at all.
Erin Patten (21:00.761)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (21:27.808)
It was more like I am an open space that gets to discover herself. So let's not look at that and start having a dialogue about and where we define ourselves. Like before the day started, we've defined ourselves. My mom used to say, like, you know, she'd have these buckets of measurement. Like as soon as she woke up, like, am I, you know, am I healthy? Am I this? Am I this? You know, like you're measuring in each of the buckets, but it almost defines us before we've even gotten out of bed.
Erin Patten (21:52.515)
Mm.
Barbara Burgess (21:52.758)
And today my no resistance was like, mm-mm, we're just gonna be in the open spaces. You know, we're gonna be in that discomfort of no clue who I am, no clue how I'm showing up, no clue. And see what that's like.
Erin Patten (22:01.945)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I love that. Okay, so let's get to the turn. The reconciliation is what I call it. So name the tension out loud. I build containers that help women expand. We shared that. You wrote a book that says that you're already enough. To a listener, those sound like opposites. So let's go ahead and weave that together and help them understand the tension here, the contradiction here.
Barbara Burgess (22:23.896)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (22:28.068)
and and I love, yeah. And and I'm just gonna go back to your phrase because I think it's stunning, beautiful, and it actually to me it represents enough, right? So it's I build containers that help women expand. That's what I heard, right? Like that is holding the space of enoughness to me. Like you couldn't I I wanna cry, you couldn't get a better definition, I think, because it's n you're not saying I help women be a size six, achieve
500,000. Now they may come to those things. Those may be a natural result of these containers, but that container says in and of itself that we are enough, right? And I don't think we have enough people in our lives who will hold that for us. And and a quick example of this is I I have friends that we just leave messages back and forth because we have busy lives and that's how we kind of keep up. And one of the friends I had said yesterday is said, I'm just in a new space of loneliness.
Erin Patten (22:59.887)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (23:26.694)
And it's because, you know, all the I have lots of friends based on my past history that aren't don't fit in the same way anymore. And yet I'm not in a space where I've I'm yet with that new discovery and new tribe. And she she meant this very well. But in her message back was giving me advice about how to meet people and all these kinds of things. And there's nothing wrong with that except, no, that's not what I was actually saying. I just
What I I I know how to meet people and I don't have any doubt that I could go do that right now and go build a tribe if I wanted. What I was trying to express is in this container right now, like what I am holding for myself is loneliness and I want and get to be there. I don't have to be in the friends plate. Like I am enough in this moment of holding this, right? Which is, you know, from my understanding, what you do, that's what you do for a living. You you meet women and you say, This is glorious.
Now, what would this love to do? How would this love to play? What does that get to look like? And to me, that's an inviting out of enough. That is a calling forth from our deepest spaces. Like if I'm already okay, then all the possibilities are open to me. Right? If I'm not okay and I'm not enough, then you have to give me the prescription and formula that matches yours so that we can be alike and we can both do the same thing, right? That's the not enough formula.
Erin Patten (24:45.901)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Barbara Burgess (24:48.696)
We're all supposed to live in a certain way, wear certain clothes, achieve a certain level of income, et cetera. That's not enough, right? But when I say to you, here's the container of you, you wonderful, gorgeous goddess person, and I'm gonna hold it while you step out. I'm gonna hold these walls, right? And I say that like I'm gonna go back to that. There's a that research example of if you build a playground and you don't put fencing around it, all the kids will.
Erin Patten (24:54.373)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (25:17.816)
hang out in the middle tightly together. If you put a fence, they'll explore the whole playground. They'll use every part of it. And so I think about that like without the container, right? Without that container of these boundaries, I'm just going to stay tightly in my little cave. You know, I'm going to stay in this little seat and say, this is why I am, this is why I am, this is why I am. But if you give me a playground and say, hey, it's all safe, you can come explore. Then I get to try kickball over here. I hate that.
Erin Patten (25:23.045)
Okay.
Erin Patten (25:28.547)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (25:45.698)
I'm gonna try foursquare. I'm gonna do double dutch. I'm gonna like I I don't even know what I'm gonna do. Right. And so to me, and this is where, you know, when I say that personal growth is a problem, I don't mean you growing personally is a problem. I think it's freaking fantastic. I think it's wonderful. It's just not meant to be a thing to achieve so that I'm enough. Right. And it even goes back to your place on self-critic criticism. Like, no, it's just wiping that clean. Not necessary at all.
Erin Patten (25:47.983)
Yeah.
Right.
Erin Patten (26:06.041)
Right.
Erin Patten (26:14.146)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (26:14.284)
You know, and and the phrase that I've been using for myself in this last couple of years is I get to. You know, I get to lose weight, I get to be fat. I get to dress colorfully, I get to dress bland. I get to go swimming, I get to say I'm gonna sit out and read my book. I just get to, get to, get to. Right. And I think that's the place where then the true discovery happens. So it's not the discovery that's a problem. It's not the growing that's a problem, it's the achieving because.
Erin Patten (26:24.74)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (26:29.305)
Right.
Erin Patten (26:39.341)
Yes. And I just think that's so beautiful because a lot of women need to hear that. And I love even just the framing of just enough. And it's just enough, you know? And I think to the whole kind of the I would say the arc of this conversation has been around how do we
you know, set those boundaries to your point about the playground, which I thought was a beautiful analogy for ourselves. So that if you say you're in this container with me, amazing. But if you're j if you're not having the opportunity to be in these formal environments, how do I set these healthy boundaries for myself to expand, to explore, to to nourish myself, to improve and then not go too far with it or not contract too much. And so I think that finding that kind of that
balance of enoughness and like what is enough, like how you share with going with going for the walk. Like do I get my 10,000 steps today? What does my body say? Listening to myself. Yes or no? And knowing that I still have tomorrow to reach my goals and listening to that that voice within. So I I really, really resonate with what you're sharing.
Barbara Burgess (27:46.114)
Well, and I and I wanna say a few things to what you were just saying about cause because really it is boundaries, right? And and I write about that in the book a lot, at least from my journey and my perspective on it. And I just want to name, cause listeners, you probably heard it, but Erin set beautiful boundary with me like a second ago when I started when I was almost getting a little self-critical. And she just swooped in next to me and was like, but we're not going there. It was like such a beautiful invitation, right? Like this is what someone
Erin Patten (27:52.41)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (28:09.305)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (28:13.432)
Who cares about you and not doing harm to yourself does for you. So, like we can set them for ourselves. We can surround ourselves with people who have our back. Like I felt like that was you having my back in that moment. Like, mmm, nope. And so, but though that boundary setting, I think is really, really big. And it was something I did not have much muscle in at all. people thought I did because I was assertive or a strong woman or whatever that stereotype is.
Erin Patten (28:17.187)
Right.
Erin Patten (28:35.708)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (28:40.352)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (28:41.506)
But no, that was just another version of me giving myself over for other folks. And I think, you know, the the blessing and challenge of this is it really is tuning into the inside, like at its core, because no one can tell me. Somebody can watch for me like you just did and invite me into that. Wait, hey, pause there, girl, for a second. Did you want to go there? No, I did not. And but but it's my journey to be with me enough to sort out what that looks like. Right. And so
Erin Patten (29:02.764)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (29:10.072)
Part of the conversation, you know, about like I'll even go to this friends example is what spaces do I want to be in? Right. And so I have friends I've had for a long time, but now with where I'm at right now, that doesn't necessarily add to me. In fact, it can pull from me. So part of the boundary is I'm not going to go to that event. There was an event I got invited to recently that.
Erin Patten (29:27.087)
That part. Yes.
Barbara Burgess (29:35.276)
I wanted to celebrate the person, but the whole rest of the crew that was going to be there, I knew exactly what the script was going to be and it would not have filled me up. It would have drained me and I turned it down. And I reached out to my friend and I said to him, Hey, by the way, I'd love to go to coffee with you. I'd love to celebrate this milestone with you, et cetera. It's just not a good fit for me, given the group of blah, blah, blah. And he knows me well. And he's like, Thanks so much for that. So like that was a boundary. I'm not going to that event that just cause everybody's going, but I will celebrate you because you matter to me.
And and that's all from that internal GPS, right? Really tuning into like that compass and what's it telling me. And I think that what's it telling me, part of it is heart. It is our body sensations. Like I met with this African healer, such a beautiful man, Molodoma, who's past Patrice Malodoma back in 2019. And I remember him saying to me, he says, you tend to notice all the little things that are like if something's off, you can just sense it.
But he said, the way that you'll know what's true is by the meter of your heart. You know, and I thought, gosh, what a beautiful thing. And I, and I really couldn't appreciate it until the last year. Like I saved that recording and I listen to it often, but the meter of my heart will tell me if what I'm riding with is for me or not. You know, and I feel like that's the divine connection. Like when I'm with me and I'm with God, then I know, and it may make no sense to anybody. And part of this enoughness is I don't have to explain it.
Erin Patten (30:35.237)
Mm.
Erin Patten (30:48.087)
I love that. Yes.
Barbara Burgess (30:59.512)
I don't I gave that person a reason just because I want to meet with them, but I don't have to. I could just say no, thank you. Right. And so in the book I talk about, you know, big nose and small nose and making these boundaries. And sometimes the small nos are harder than the big nose. Like the big nos are like, someone violated my, you know, ethics and morals. It's easier to be like, I will not talk to you again, right? That's easier. But what about somebody invites you to a fundraiser?
Erin Patten (31:02.927)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (31:27.208)
And it's a free ticket and you should go because you're free, but you don't want to go. Like, you know, so do you get to say the small no's? No. Or, you know, you have a group of friends that you meet with regularly and you just decide that's not for me this quarter. Do you get to say no? Or are you are we too worried about saving face? Or somebody gives you a free thing, right? Like I used to hang on to so many free things, you know, because somebody gave it to me. So you should, because it was a gift. And I'm like, that's not meant for me.
So I get to release it without guilt or shame, right? Because I think otherwise our lives, our calendars, our time, our energy gets filled with everybody else's requests versus these small and big boundaries of no, no, no, no, no, yes. no, you know? And I get to change my mind also. I get to, you know, say I'm not going and at the last minute, just pop in the car, you know?
Erin Patten (32:05.43)
Yes.
Erin Patten (32:10.863)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (32:20.237)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (32:22.152)
And and I think that's the piece of it. Like we that's what we need muscle in, right? And I think when again, we'll go back to the personal growth. When you can meet someone in the the personal growth field who can help you do that, that's a beautiful thing. Right. And I think back to a coach I had who helped me, he would help me come to certain conf conclusions. And it was we were so different. He was like an East Coast analytical, like I'm a heart-based Midwestern feeling everything kind of gal. But
Erin Patten (32:35.236)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (32:52.076)
That served me so much at that moment because that's where, you know, he he some of the decisions he helped me facilitate for myself, right? Is are things like I get to know what I know, you know? And and so it's like there's things that you know that people might gaslight you about and you never can prove, but I get to know that I know that, right? So from a growth perspective, like I don't need to keep doing classes with him till I'm dead, but did that really serve me?
in you know establishing these things that work for my own self in the boundaries, yes, they do, right? So that's to me the beautiful, fun, joyous work. And, you know, you f you bounce up against people who may or may not align with that and you get to make that call, right?
Erin Patten (33:28.869)
Mm.
Erin Patten (33:39.735)
I love that. Yes. I I mean, and I'm gonna get to the lightning round to ask you some quick questions. I just want to respond to what you were saying, particularly about the heart meter, because that really connects all the way back to how we were talking about Krulluma and being able to tap into that light of the heart and being able to tap into yourself and being able to listen to your body.
Barbara Burgess (33:46.786)
Yeah, yeah.
Erin Patten (34:03.329)
And I think that if we can just do more of that, then it'll be easier for us to say those little no's or even those big no's or those maybe later. And that is nothing more than the honoring of the self and the honoring of the heart. So I just am so glad that you brought that up for our listener.
Barbara Burgess (34:18.968)
Well, and by the way, there's very like I'm a even though I'm visionary in what I think for myself and others, I'm practical. Like so to me, I go to an event, did I feel better or worse after? Boom. It's pretty it can be pretty easy that way. I felt super drained. All right, was it because I was with somebody or was it the event itself? Like we can ask ourselves some things to practice to your point, tuning into that.
Erin Patten (34:27.79)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (34:32.229)
yeah.
Erin Patten (34:37.111)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. Hundred percent. Okay, now we're gonna get to the lightning round for for closing. So dark chocolate or nothing?
Barbara Burgess (34:43.384)
Yep. Yep.
Barbara Burgess (34:49.23)
It yes, dark chocolate all day long. Cause otherwise I'm uninterested. Uninterested. Everything else is a waste of time.
Erin Patten (34:58.509)
Okay.
A waste of time, okay? All right. So what's the last small no you said?
Barbara Burgess (35:09.41)
to I it was literally that email to that guy which was yesterday. to his event. Yeah, it was, you know, I'm I'm not going. It was yesterday.
Erin Patten (35:13.189)
Okay.
Wha What a perfect question. I didn't even know this. Okay. Okay. Enough in one breath. What does it feel like in the body?
Barbara Burgess (35:29.134)
A a deep sigh.
A big old exhale.
Erin Patten (35:36.047)
Just like that.
Barbara Burgess (35:38.806)
You're like, here I am.
Erin Patten (35:40.707)
That's what it feels like, y'all. Okay. If a woman is listening right now, she's exhausted from trying to become the one shift you give her to execute like right now.
Barbara Burgess (35:48.782)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara Burgess (35:53.823)
Boy, that's a tough one. And I'll tell you why I struggle with that one is I don't want to provide another to do. You know, and and so what I would say is go inside and say what would most delight, serve, nourish me right this second, and do it and be unapologetic about it, whatever it is. Doesn't have to be logical at all. Could be binge watching something. I don't care. Yeah.
Erin Patten (36:15.405)
I love it
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. So good. God, that was so good. Okay. Well, I am gonna, you know, wrap this up. But this was such a fantastic conversation. Barbara, thank you so much for your time. I really would love for you just to share with our listeners, you know, where can they can find you, how they could work with you or get your book and, you know, find you on social media if if you're
Barbara Burgess (36:44.94)
Yeah, great. my website has, you know, most information about me. It's coreluma.com, C-O-R-L-U-M-A.com. and the book, it's Enough by Barbara Burgess. It's on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble, all those kinds of things. You do have to put my la, you know, my name in because there's a lot of books about enough that have all different meanings. but yeah, between the website and and there, plenty of spaces to find me.
Erin Patten (37:01.976)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (37:07.844)
Okay, great.
Well, I mean, again, this was just such a fantastic conversation. There's just so many opportunities for women and men to learn about how to hold space for their growth in a way that's healthy and happy and most importantly, nourishing. And for all of you who are listening and you made it this far, and you tune into the Meta Business Millennial podcast, and you want to learn more about me and my programs, I offer again transformational containers for women to expand, including my Divine Alignment Mentor.
And you can learn more about my programs at my website, AaronPatton.com. And I am just, again, so honored to have you, Barbara, on the show. Thank you. Yeah, of course.
Barbara Burgess (37:48.728)
Can I can I put in one more plug here? Ca I'm just gonna say for all of your listeners, so I do a lot of podcasts and Erin is holding that container for me even as I'm in this interview and I can feel it. So I I don't know enough details about what programs and what you should do with her, but it has felt like a gift to be held in this space. And so sign up for her stuff. There we go.
Erin Patten (38:13.048)
Yes, well, I couldn't have asked for a better testimonial, you guys. I I didn't even ask her. She just gave it. But yes, I this is a safe space. And I know our listeners come here because it's a safe space. And we want to create more of these spaces, not only here, but in our in our world. And that's the whole I ethos behind my business, the meta business world. And this is just the beginning, y'all. It feels like we're in the middle of the you know.
Barbara Burgess (38:17.208)
Yeah.
Barbara Burgess (38:41.878)
Yeah. Something's happening.
Erin Patten (38:43.204)
Yeah, but we know that that that this world is changing and we are here for the ride or else we would have been gone by now. All right, you guys. Well, I just want to wish you so much love and light. Thank you so much for tuning in. Peace.
Barbara Burgess (38:52.718)
Amen.