Erin Patten (00:00:05)
You can have all the degrees, the executive title, the years of experience, and still feel your heart pound, your handshake, and that nagging voice in your head asking, Who do you think you are? My guest today has a PhD. She teaches at business schools across Europe and works with the United Nations and the European Commission, and she still felt like an imposter. Because confidence doesn't come through accolades. It's something that you embody.
Today I'm joined by Dr. Alexandra Plazanish, communication coach and author from Fear to Fearless Female Speaker, and she's going to show us how to stop performing confidence and start actually feeling it.
Alright, welcome, Alexandra, to the meta business millennial podcast.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:00:57)
Thank you, Erin. Thank you for having me.
Erin Patten (00:00:59)
⁓ Yes, I ⁓ I just am ⁓ still loving this whole idea of embodiment. So I'm just so grateful that you've come on the show to really share with us how to do more of that. ⁓ and you know, I think you're in Barcelona now, you live between there and the Netherlands. I mean, you're like an international, you know, ⁓ professor, teacher, all these things, author. ⁓ before I get into ⁓
All those things, I really want to start with who you are ⁓ and and where you come from. And so what was it like growing up in Serbia? I really would love for you to paint a picture for us of your home life, your education, so we can get a sense of where did Alexandra come from? ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:01:47)
⁓ Yes. ⁓ well, I come from a relatively small town from western part of Serbia, ⁓ and I grew up in not very fortunate times for my country. So during the nineties when we had a lot of ⁓ conflict, ⁓ and ⁓ the borders were closed, so we were most of the time under sanctions, we couldn't really leave the country. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:02:13)
wow.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:02:15)
Yes, ⁓ and but I cannot say that I have ⁓ bad childhood, so you learnt ⁓ this kind of a a system. ⁓ I'm the only child, ⁓ and so my parents always expected a lot from me, which I think it is ⁓ something ⁓ that pushed me through, right? To to do more, to succeed in life, to ⁓ because they always spoke that I'm capable, right? That you're intelligent, you can
Erin Patten (00:02:21)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:02:45)
do things and even though they never expected okay this is expected that you have straight A's that ⁓ you do that but it was somewhere right ⁓ where I felt right that was the ⁓ the that was the the minimum right that you have to ⁓ do. ⁓ And the whole educational system that I come from is very ⁓ disciplined, very strict and in that sense ⁓ not a lot of praise was given. Actually the most of feedback that we got was
Erin Patten (00:02:59)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:03:14)
mostly negative. ⁓ and this is how you grow, right? And this is how you have to ⁓ learn. So not I think that changed a lot in many in the world in general when we talk about the positive right discipline and how to motivate. ⁓ it was the other way around when I was growing up. ⁓ And even though I had straight A's and I was a really good student and I mean in the elementary school at the in high school and afterwards at the university. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:03:20)
Mm. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:03:28)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:03:33)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:03:43)
⁓ it still ⁓ right it felt like it was never enough so when you got an A so everybody were like okay that's that's okay that is something that we expected from you right ⁓ but then ⁓ if your grades would slip then you you would get these comments and this is actually most of the feedback that I remember is ⁓ you're slipping there or ⁓ we feel so disappointed right from the teachers from the mentors ⁓ and ⁓ this is something right ⁓
that gave me a little bit of this imposter syndrome that we talk about today. ⁓ And that you always feel that you're never right good enough or that ⁓ what manipasted more with me is that you always have to prove where you are, even if you have all the qualifications, even if you earn this place, ⁓ still there is this ⁓ proving dime dynamic, right? So how I can convince everybody or that I have to write convince everybody actually to
Erin Patten (00:04:20)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:04:40)
⁓ that they didn't make a mistake for giving me this this chance, right? Not to ⁓ embarrass yourself or not to let somebody ⁓ down in that sense.
Erin Patten (00:04:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ And not just not let somebody down, but that perfection is the standard. ⁓ and I resonate so deeply with that because I had a very similar upbringing and education system, in addition to having so much other conflict and chaos happening in my family's personal life, that it really is ⁓ it really is imprisoning in a way that you have to perform perfection to get love, to get attention, to get
⁓ the like you said the positive feedback. And if there's ever any slip up, if there's ever any mistake, then there's almost a withdrawing of love. In my case, there was punishment, sometimes physical punishment. ⁓ And you know, and so I completely understand where you get that that that from that programming from. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:05:37)
Yes, a lot of ⁓ I was a perfectionist, right? Still am a lot of women that work with are perfectionists. ⁓ And the thing is, right, about a perfectionism, you you think you got there, right? ⁓ Okay, now it's perfect, now I I got it. But then it's always like, ⁓ Okay, actually that goal is done, I'm done. ⁓ okay, let's see what's next. And that's why the perfectionism is like it's like a moving target. You you never
Erin Patten (00:05:40)
Mm-hmm. What does that?
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:06:03)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:06:05)
It's never good enough, it's never perfect enough. Even then we st set standards right for for ourselves in life.
Erin Patten (00:06:07)
Yeah. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:06:11)
Yes. my God, that's so true. And so ⁓ when the system mostly point points out what you can't do, what does that do to a young girl's voice for you specifically? Like when you notice first noticed yourself going quiet, how was that experience for you?
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:06:32)
So during the the school, well, since I was ⁓ I was a very good student and I was ⁓ wanting to be in different activities, like to perform, I wanted to be on stage. ⁓ So in that sense, I I didn't feel it that way. ⁓ but it was mostly ⁓ afterwards, like I when I ⁓ started my professional career, so that you keep that same right pattern and ⁓ those voices are actually ⁓ bouncing more.
And even though how much you you achieved afterwards, I felt like I have to write prove something or that ⁓ I was in the other environment where people didn't really ⁓ know me or even though I I passed let's say ⁓ the the whole selection process there, it felt that okay I have to prove something and if I do not do it right, then probably they will be disappointed or they would they would judge me or they will they would evaluate me negatively.
Erin Patten (00:07:31)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:07:31)
And in that sense, ⁓ maybe I got ⁓ I was not that much outspoken, right? That I would wait for my turn ⁓ or I would wait for ⁓ to have ⁓ all the answers or to to have the perfect lines, because otherwise, right, if I spoke in that unperfect right ⁓ way, ⁓ I thought that that I'm gonna be, first of all, judged. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:07:37)
Yes.
Erin Patten (00:07:56)
That's absolutely right. And in terms of just how I felt in in the same experience, is that when we're having to kind of please and perfect and perform, that voice is really in many ways, ⁓ I felt like mine was constricted. And I always say like I felt like I didn't even know how to express my truth because I was so concerned with being right, giving the right answer, giving what people wanted to hear.
That my truth didn't even matter. I didn't even I I couldn't even hear it, to be honest. So in terms of like what it did for my young girl's voice, is it was completely gone. Like I certainly was loud and outspoken and gregarious and extroverted, but certainly in terms of how I express myself, to even to this day, it's very difficult. ⁓ It's very difficult.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:08:45)
Mm. ⁓
I've seen it as well with a lot of women, ⁓ because this is as well the ⁓ the perspective that we have, right? We have to first please somebody, ⁓ please our audience, please our team. What happens if they do not like what they hear? Or maybe should have told this softer, ⁓ right? Maybe I was too direct, maybe I was too too firm. So it comes from a lot of expectations from us as women, right? To be good girls, ⁓ but to be as well.
Erin Patten (00:09:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (00:09:13)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:09:16)
smart, intelligent, ⁓ to work on ourselves, but as well not to not to bother anybody ⁓ much. ⁓ So there is this pleasing dynamic that that I usually see. ⁓ And of course this that me versus them. So the audience, so they will they will judge me or they will put me in a spot that they will final finally you know find out who I really am. Maybe I'm not good, maybe I'm not at ⁓ who I say that I am or
Erin Patten (00:09:22)
Right.
Erin Patten (00:09:33)
Mm.
Erin Patten (00:09:40)
Yes.
Erin Patten (00:09:45)
Yes. Yes. And that actually at its core is the imposter syndrome is it's like us versus them and not understanding sort of the the truth and that we're all in this together and we all share these experiences in one way, form or another, you know? And so I love that you brought that up in terms of just how it practically shows up for you. ⁓ And I wanna ⁓ talk more about sort of the education path because
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:09:51)
Mm.
Erin Patten (00:10:13)
according to like how we were raised, like you you went the furthest. You got a PhD. Like that's you're a whole doctor of ⁓ and maybe you can speak more to what the your PhD accolade. And you got you received that about 10 years ago and you said it took you a long time to actually get it, of course. So what was that journey like for you? ⁓ And what did the imposter syndrome look like in your body and your behavior in that time period?
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:10:42)
So first I got the first master's degree, which was let's say a very natural path that I wanted to at the same university. ⁓ And ⁓ afterwards I got the the second master's degree. So ⁓ I went to study in France and Germany, and I got a scholarship. ⁓ And of course, most of the my my professors, most of my peers, they asked me, Are you gonna do a PhD? You're ⁓ you have two master's degrees, so the next step is PhD. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:10:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:11:11)
And that always thought about it, okay, but you know, maybe I'm not that good, or we'll see. ⁓ it's a lot of ⁓ research, it's a lot of work, maybe I'm ⁓ not ⁓ there, right, ⁓ yet. ⁓ which it took me after my my second master's study, so it took me like four or five years to to decide ⁓ whether to to go for for a PhD, which I finally, yeah. ⁓ And it was yeah, now you I can recognize it, it's a lot of the imposter syndrome.
Erin Patten (00:11:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:11:35)
Wow.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:11:41)
Right. ⁓ so I talked as well talked to people who did ⁓ PhD afterwards, or maybe it's because ⁓ traditionally, right, people who do PhD there, you have this perspective of them. They're usually in some institute or they're working at the university, ⁓ or they're by their own, very into their topic, ⁓ a little bit of the nerds, ⁓ kind of personalities. And I I'm very extroverted and I'm
Erin Patten (00:11:41)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:12:05)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:12:10)
communicative and I love that part of the my job more than than ⁓ just doing it something individually. Even today when we write a research paper, we we do it together. ⁓ But I think that was the image maybe that I had in my mind. And that was just, and at that time that was the those were the people right who got their their PhD or they were already at the university. And I didn't I just didn't connect with this who I wanted to be.
⁓ and then afterwards ⁓ changed because I I thought I was very excited about the the topic that I wanted to to write about, and I found as well a good mentors ⁓ and my PhD ⁓ thesis supervisor. So as well that that helped me a lot. ⁓ But I think ⁓ once you're ready, as they say, once student is ready, the the master shows up. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (00:13:01)
Yes, the teacher will appear. And that's really beautiful that you shared that because oftentimes we do have to go it alone. And there's times in our lives where universe wants us to learn how to build those skills on our own. And then once we get to a certain level, of course, the teacher, the master will appear to take us to the next level. ⁓ And you know, I think that it's ⁓ particularly in academia, ⁓ because of the competitive nature of the space ⁓ and
the grading system, everything about it, in my view, really brings out the imposter syndrome. Like when I was at Harvard, I I didn't go all the way to the PhD level, but I did do a dual master's program in ⁓ public policy and business. ⁓ And there was just so much insecurity, feeling like I didn't know enough, feeling like everyone else was better than me, ⁓ feeling like I came from a non-traditional background. And there was
always sort of this inferiority complex that I carried with me ⁓ and ⁓ in many ways did my best to to soothe it, you know, and ⁓ it it really I believe is just a function of the academic culture. And and and I and I know maybe this wasn't always the intention of academia, but it certainly has become that today. So I feel you on on that journey and and kudos to you for being able to
receive support from a mentor and finding someone that could cat that can hold space for you. ⁓ and going more into the, you know, ⁓ maybe this was a turning point, but maybe not in terms of the mentor. ⁓ But what was the moment where you went from
collecting credentials, collecting the degrees to actually embodying it and really feeling like, okay, I'm a doctor and I own this these teachings.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:14:58)
It was a journey. So it was not ⁓ one moment. ⁓ Still, right. Sometimes ⁓ especially on ⁓ when somebody's announcing me and then they read all the credentials and I'm listening like, it is really me. ⁓ Right. It's not somebody else. ⁓ so it is a journey. I remember the first time when I had to do s do this exercise and you list all the achievements, which I love, and this is really your ⁓ great ⁓ first step to recognize it.
Erin Patten (00:14:59)
Ha ha ha. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:15:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:15:27)
where you are, ⁓ what have you achieved, and then you remember what challenges you had to overcome, ⁓ how it was difficult. So as well for many clients we do this ⁓ exercise. But when I did it for the first time, I was literally in sweat ⁓ because ⁓ I had to present it, right? So I was like, yeah, this is me. I got this scholarship. ⁓ the I went to this program ⁓ and so on. ⁓ And literally I remember I was I was in sweat because it was so ⁓
⁓ external, right? So out of ⁓ out of it was like outside of my body or who I am. ⁓ that was ⁓ very strong then at it ⁓ you almost feel like somebody else did that for you or you were just lucky or okay ⁓ yeah the opportunity showed up so you you took it ⁓ or ⁓ anything that you can come up with. ⁓ And ⁓ but our over the years right ⁓ I started to embody that and ⁓
So to as well to sustain it ⁓ in a sense that that I practice right piece by piece. ⁓ and then you get as well more self-confidence. But the the most important thing is that, well, today what is the difference is that I feel grounded. So I I really can embrace all of those things that they're really ⁓ mine. ⁓ and you don't have to brag about that, but this is more of an internal work, right? They're part of part of you really.
Physically, mentally, ⁓ emotionally, right? That you can yes, that you can
Erin Patten (00:16:55)
Hundred percent. my god. And I'm so glad you brought us there because I have questions around that because you literally have a method and you can name the method and talk to us about it, but you describe it as a triangulation between the mind, the body, the emotions, and content as well. ⁓ And so I really wan want you to explain why do we have to have all four of them work together in your view and maybe even walk us a little bit through your method.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:17:11)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:17:25)
⁓ Absolutely. ⁓ What I've seen from most of the trainings and some of the trainings that I've been to, so we usually start from the content. So how to prepare the content, how do we deliver, where to stand, how to hold your hands, what ⁓ are we talking, and so on, which is very important. ⁓ But I've realized so we like starting with that first, it's very much about performing. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:17:41)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:17:51)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:17:53)
That ⁓ actually you're trying to be somebody else without first embracing really who you are ⁓ and ⁓ in a way calming as well your your nerves and ⁓ embracing some other emotions that that can help you ⁓ in that journey. ⁓ So I always want to start actually with the body more ⁓ because we can we can easily adjust the body. So we don't have to think through that. So with the mind, as we now talked about it, right? With the mind, you think, am I good enough? Or is this good?
Erin Patten (00:17:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:18:06)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:18:22)
Is this ⁓ actually ⁓ did I prepare enough? I should prepare more of the slides or I should add more of a content next sentence. And I've seen that with a lot of women, but I s I saw that a lot of women they knew what they're talking about. ⁓ Rarely I meet a woman that they don't know what they're talking about or they ⁓ don't usually they do. ⁓ And that's what we come to the content last. So how to actually structure it ⁓ and how to frame it so
Erin Patten (00:18:42)
Yeah, I agree. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:18:52)
you really ⁓ you're more impactful. ⁓ But with the body ⁓ is that ⁓ first of all you can only feel your emotions in your body. So if you just ignore that, they will they will leak into your voice ⁓ or it will show up in your posture, it will show up in your ⁓ in your hands, ⁓ or even physically, right? ⁓ you will feel it in your throat or tightening right somewhere somewhere else. ⁓ and so that's what we can first
Erin Patten (00:19:19)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:19:22)
⁓ actually turn around the the body with the postures with the ⁓ the breeding and we don't have to think about it we can just do it mechanically we don't even have to believe about that ⁓ so you just ⁓ sometimes you just to feel the grounded just to to feel your feet like both of your feet on the ground ⁓ and you already can feel that you're you're more stable you don't have to ⁓ use the whole stage let's say to to move
Erin Patten (00:19:30)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:19:51)
You can just stand there and ⁓ feel that for a couple of seconds to know ⁓ where you are, so to to ground center yourself to get more concentration. Sometimes that is all it's needed. ⁓ And of course, moving to ⁓ emotions, right? What do we what do we feel? How do we ⁓ feel nervousness ⁓ or fear of public speaking? So, how do we can turn that around?
Erin Patten (00:20:01)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:20:17)
maybe to find a better emotion. So we don't sometimes ⁓ the path right for for from being very nervous to be very calm, it's a long way. ⁓ so ⁓ what I found more useful is to find a little bit of the better emotion for yourself at that point. So you're okay, I'm nervous or I feel anxiety. So what is a little bit better emotion that you can maybe turn it around? ⁓ so you can say
Erin Patten (00:20:27)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (00:20:35)
Mm, mm. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:20:42)
Okay. ⁓ Okay. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:20:46)
I'm excited, right? It comes ⁓ actually, your emotions come from the same place. So this is the truth. They the manifestation of it in the body is the same. ⁓ So it depends as well. How do you ⁓ you use it? Where you say, okay, I'm a little bit more ⁓ calmer or more grounded, ⁓ whatever as well is working for you at ⁓ at that ⁓ moment. And then once we had
Erin Patten (00:20:56)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:21:10)
Mm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:21:12)
calming of the body and emotions, then it's easier to go to the mind. So our mind actually ⁓ can can trust, trust us better. And ⁓ then we can really ⁓ have this self-talk right when our body when you already feel a little bit more self-confident and calmer ⁓ to work with your mind and ⁓ come with ⁓ some questions for instance that that you can ask especially for the fear right ⁓
Erin Patten (00:21:16)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:21:40)
what exactly am I afraid of? Because we talked about the imposter syndrome and the fear, ⁓ and ⁓ it's usually it's not the just the public speaking. Usually what I found with the women it's I'll I will ⁓ be judged, I will be evaluated, my boss is there, they're gonna think this ⁓ audience is gonna ask me uncomfortable questions, ⁓ or they're gonna ask me the question that I do not know.
Erin Patten (00:22:07)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:22:08)
Because what we are fearing ⁓ is actually something that it's ⁓ we have fear when something is not clear, where we're not really clear, when we have this dread of thoughts. And once we start to undread it, then ⁓ the fear is actually releasing more.
Erin Patten (00:22:25)
⁓ Mmm, ⁓ I love that. And so, you know, I really want to talk a little bit about that fear thread ⁓ because I think that's a piece where we can all kind of take some nuggets away and actually practice it. How do you generally coach people through like unraveling that fear thread and kind of going from intense ⁓
anxiety around speaking or showing up for this board meeting or having this hard conversation with my partner or my child to actually having a little bit more calmness in it. You know, I I really think that would be a great ⁓ piece of advice for our audience.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:23:04)
So first, right, ⁓ when we want to ⁓ have results, we have to actually measure something and then afterwards we we can evaluate right whether there is a problem or not. ⁓ the first thing I mean for everybody as well, we can just ⁓ take a minute and ⁓ evaluate our fear. So is it zero that I'm totally relaxed, and is it ten that I'm bad for, right? That I will ⁓
Erin Patten (00:23:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:23:29)
Mm. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:23:33)
something will happen right on the stage. I don't know what, but you know, if it's so is it from zero from ten? So if you can pick up the number ⁓ and ⁓ then we start from there. So usually let's say if it's ⁓ I'm not as old fan if it's zero because zero sometimes means that you don't care, right? When you're totally relaxed ⁓ and that means you're in your pyjama watching Netflix and then w what ⁓
Erin Patten (00:23:54)
Yeah, yeah.
Erin Patten (00:24:00)
Ha ha ha. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:24:02)
⁓ But we want to be excited about the the topic. We want to be motivated to share some of the messaging. ⁓ Of course, if the fear is too high, so eight, nine, ten, ⁓ probably that is very crippling. So that is something that will hinder our success. That we will have this negative emotional ⁓ sensations in body, right? That is that is not really giving us space to to show ⁓ our messaging. ⁓ And then
Erin Patten (00:24:09)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:24:29)
They
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:24:30)
Starting from there, then ⁓ exactly I I started with the question, what exactly are you afraid of? And we dig deeper into that. And you can do ⁓ this exercise as well at home, although it is ⁓ it is a little bit unpleasant because it goes really ⁓ deeper. So some of the clients who are doing it by themselves, ⁓ so it's better to to have a coach or somebody that supports you. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:24:36)
Mm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:24:58)
Because it's not very, very pleasant because you really go deep in in what are you exactly afraid of. So it's not your boss, it's not, okay, I'm gonna look ⁓ incompetent. ⁓ But we ⁓ we go and already right when you ask this this question a couple of times, you get ⁓ to the to the real right fear. ⁓ And then to go even further, we say, Okay, so what? ⁓ So
So, what if that happens? So, I'm gonna fail on the stage, I'm gonna freeze, I'm gonna, so okay, so what? ⁓ So, that is as well very uncomfortable. ⁓ the idea is really to ⁓ for the clients to see to go through together to through the worst case scenario. So, ⁓ even if it happens, but probably in most of the cases it does not happen, so a lot of it is in our head.
Erin Patten (00:25:45)
Mm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:25:53)
But once we unthread it to okay, what is the worst it will happen? And then what? Okay, that has happened now. What you will do? Usually there is a way, only way up, right? So ⁓ we were giving actually the experience, and ⁓ now we're thinking about the strategies ourselves. How are we gonna ⁓ solve that? ⁓ So in this, you have the cause, right? What are you exactly afraid of? So we have a very clear answer. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:26:05)
Mm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:26:22)
That helps our mind. ⁓ And plus, we have a remedy. We know exactly, okay, that happens. If I let's say lose a voice on the stage, what will I do? And then ⁓ everybody comes with with their answer. I'll take a glass of water, I will take, I don't know, five minutes ⁓ break, I will maybe share with my audience, okay, can you just give me a second? This means a lot to me. ⁓
Whatever the reason is, ⁓ I had a client once, she was afraid of the mic, ⁓ so that was every time she saw a microphone, ⁓ she felt like her voice is trembling.
Erin Patten (00:27:00)
Mm. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:27:02)
And then we worked on some of the of course ⁓ other techniques, but one of them was okay, so ⁓ maybe you can lose the mic and start talking without the mic. So that was one of her right suggestions, what would work for her. ⁓ So with this exercise, right, we have to find every client has to find it for themselves, of course, with the ⁓ with the path that I'm taking them on. ⁓ Once we have, of course, the
Erin Patten (00:27:27)
Mm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:27:30)
the most negative ⁓ strategy, let's say the the negative scenario, ⁓ then we go and say, okay, what is the most positive scenario? What if that is actually in our head? Let's try to to take our mind through the ⁓ the most positive experience. And the the last question, which which I think it's the most important one, is ⁓ what would you do if you were not afraid?
Erin Patten (00:27:46)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:27:54)
Hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:27:57)
So in that sense, we ⁓ actually ⁓ give ourselves a direction or what I want ⁓ for everybody to ask this tomorrow. It's let's take a commitment. Okay, what would I do at this meeting if I was not afraid? So ⁓ that commitment for every day, every meeting. So you don't you you don't have to start big in front of the presentation, ⁓ but start with a small with real commitment ⁓ by answering that question. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:28:12)
Yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:28:26)
Well.
Erin Patten (00:28:27)
It's so good because ⁓ I'm going through a season right now where I'm studying law and I have several pending ⁓ court appearances ⁓ and this has been a generational issue for for me and my family is dealing with court. ⁓ my father actually spent seven years in federal prison and it's something that I was, you know, like speaking of silencing my voice, I was always ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:28:44)
⁓
Erin Patten (00:28:55)
Told not to talk about it. Like I would have to lie and tell people he was on a business trip my whole childhood. He was away. ⁓ And then later in life, you know, kind of that court stuff circled back for my parents. And then now I'm dealing with it on so many different aspects of my life in custody court and real estate court and probate court, you name it court. I'm in that court. ⁓ And for me, I'm choosing to present myself in court.
Come to understand that having an attorney is, you know, taking a second back seat to my own life and my own, you know, fate. And I'm choosing to ⁓ take the matters into my own hands. So I have a tremendous fear ⁓ of being in court, of speaking to the judge, of standing up for myself. ⁓ And it there couldn't be anything more sovereign than just telling my truth. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:29:45)
Mm.
Erin Patten (00:29:47)
But it's something that's incredibly scary. And obviously I'm speaking publicly as well in front of like people holding guns, you know, and taking haul me off to jail. So the stakes are very high here. ⁓ And to ask me myself that question, what would I say? What would I do if I wasn't afraid? If I had no fear, ⁓ that just takes my whole ⁓ planning and imagining to a whole different level.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:29:54)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:29:58)
No.
Erin Patten (00:30:15)
So of course we can all walk through the worst case scenario. And I'm so glad for that reminder of just saying, okay, what is the worst case? What can happen? Can I go to jail? What would I do if I go to jail? What would I do if they take all my everything away from me? You know, I can walk through that. But then it's even more powerful to walk through what would I would happen if I succeeded, if I showed up properly, if I was really confident. Like I don't think many of us
even give ourselves the chance to imagine that the best outcome, the highest outcome, you know, what would I do if I had the most courage and the most preparation and the most enlightened moment, you know? So I think that's such a beautiful exercise.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:31:00)
Thank you. Well, I'm sh just hope that a lot of people will use it because it is very empowering and especially as well ⁓ cannot imagine for you in that setting. ⁓ But ⁓ it is the ⁓ I think it it is a lot of people have this setting in in their minds, even though they're speaking just in front of the ⁓ acquaintances or people that they do not know. ⁓ Exactly. This is how we feel. We feel feel everybody's there as a judge. ⁓ And ⁓
Erin Patten (00:31:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:31:29)
Yeah, yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:31:31)
But at the end of the day, even in the courtroom, ⁓ judge is a human being. ⁓ And you're as well in front of the human beings that understand and they have their own experiences, they had their own ⁓ yes, ⁓ life. ⁓ so that ⁓ we connect to each other. So it's not that you're you're talking to to the wall or ⁓ we are right, ⁓ in that sense ⁓
Erin Patten (00:31:37)
Yeah.
Erin Patten (00:31:40)
Yes.
Erin Patten (00:31:56)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:32:00)
together. So we want to as well ⁓ serve your audience, whoever they are. So that that means okay, this is my truth, ⁓ these are my information, this is my content that I prepared, that I'm convict that I'm ⁓ very committed to that. ⁓ But ⁓ at the same time I'm not pleasing you. I'm not here to please you that you have to like like everything ⁓ that I say or that you even agree with.
Erin Patten (00:32:05)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (00:32:22)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:32:28)
I'm here offering this this for you. If you want to take it, that's great. If not, that's absolutely fine.
Erin Patten (00:32:35)
That's so good. Okay. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:32:40)
Okay.
Erin Patten (00:32:44)
I want I think you've guided us through this, but I wanna just ask you one quick time, particularly from your book, if you have one exercise that you could guide your l our listeners through right now in your book, ⁓ what's something that they can do before their next big conversation?
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:32:48)
Hm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:33:01)
⁓ Well, they can always start with the the body. So that means ⁓ you can put your two feet on the ground, whether you're sitting or you're standing. ⁓ so not to cross your feet, not to ⁓ stand in ⁓ in your legs like ⁓ in front of each other, but really to to feel both of your feet on the ground, ⁓ and then ⁓ make your yourself bigger, right? So when
too as well to have the we're doing it right now, right? To straighten your spine and really look up. And what helps as well, especially for women, feel just look just take more space. ⁓ Because so we're we can learn that from the animals. So animals when they they feel when they're more powerful, they take more space, right? The bear as well, they they they become bigger, they ⁓ get up on their two feet. So it goes as well for
Erin Patten (00:33:42)
Hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:33:57)
For us, because especially for the women, right? We tend to be smaller. Okay, I just I just have something to say, right? It's uncomfortable, ⁓ and your your body just shrinks. ⁓ So we're gonna do the other way around to have more confidence as well. Just take more space, whether you're sitting or ⁓ or standing, have your spine ⁓ straight, look a little bit ⁓ up, and of course smile ⁓ if you can. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:34:04)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:34:21)
Even a fake smile i is good just to send send those signals to our mind that everything is okay, right? ⁓ And of course the the poses that I really like is the power woman pose. ⁓ If you can do it, right? ⁓ before the meeting, that that is absolutely great. You can even extend it. What I like to do, ⁓ especially ⁓ thinking about the the positive ⁓ outcome, really to extend it and raise your your hands in the victorious position.
So, like we won the race and you're looking up, so you can do this ⁓ before the meeting, right? In the bathroom, in the hallway, in your cubicle. ⁓ Because that is as well what science says. Even people who were born blind, they when they win something, they're raising their hands up, right? So in a this victorious position that we usually see athletes ⁓ do that. ⁓ And just to
Erin Patten (00:35:11)
Yes, yes.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:35:15)
Here you you you can already feel right that the emotions ⁓ changing. And ⁓ if you're ⁓ as well feeling differently, then you're gonna think differently. So your mind is trying to think ⁓ differently to find the ways to say to yourself as well that ⁓ I feel confident and you you definitely do and I am or I'm going with this with a confidence. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:35:26)
Yes. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:35:41)
The other as well, what really helps me, especially if you're trying to suit yourself, it's always the reading ⁓ with the longer Xhale. But the one that is well that I want to share from my book is this sniffing, because this is what we ⁓ what we do ⁓ naturally, right? When we're trying to soothe ourselves, ⁓ then you have very short three breaths through your nose. ⁓ So just imagine if somebody was was crying and they're trying to soothe themselves, this is what they do.
Erin Patten (00:36:11)
Yeah.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:36:12)
There is a long exhale So
Erin Patten (00:36:15)
⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:36:17)
Self-soothing yourself before ⁓ the meeting, and ⁓ with your mind, then you can you can talk to your mind, you can choose your favorite affirmations. ⁓ The ones that I really like that help us connect to ourselves and to all your audience is ⁓ first, I'm glad that I'm here. So you're giving your instructions to yourself. You are glad that you're there in front of your audience, whoever they are, and then ⁓
You're thinking about your audience and say, okay, I'm glad you are here. ⁓ So ⁓ actually you're giving focus more to your audience ⁓ than to yourself. And to help us with our imposter syndrome is ⁓ to give this pathway that we really show our confidence and our competence and our knowledge because we know we have it. We just need to have the this path, this let's say door opened up that it shows.
Erin Patten (00:36:50)
Mm-hmm.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:37:15)
Is that I still use it, is I know that I know.
Erin Patten (00:37:19)
I know that I know. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:37:21)
⁓ Exactly. That ⁓ content. ⁓ That you know your content, which I'm sure you do, just to to liberate it as well. Because what is ⁓ what we do, we hold it back, right? We don't show enough what we know and that's why our competence and our knowledge and our expertise is not seen by other people.
Erin Patten (00:37:24)
I love that. You s I'm sorry.
Erin Patten (00:37:31)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Erin Patten (00:37:37)
right.
Erin Patten (00:37:46)
Mmm, I know that I know. Yes. ⁓ Okay, so these were three beautiful nuggets, y'all. So she's she first named the body ⁓ as an exercise, standing, sitting with our feet either you know, flat on the ground, legs open, or standing up, making ourselves bigger, victory stands, superwoman stands, and then the breath, as we all always, especially people listening to this, understand the power in the breath. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:37:50)
Yeah. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:38:14)
The sniffs, I I never heard that one before, but like the ⁓ the sniffs and then speaking over ourselves, the void the voice, the vibration, the I know that I know the affirmation. So what beautiful exercises. And before we wrap up, I want to do my lightning round, which is like the fun round. So I'm gonna ask you a few questions and you try to answer it with like one or two words. And then of course you can describe it, but you have to like give like quick answer.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:38:17)
⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:38:39)
Okay. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:38:43)
All right.
Erin Patten (00:38:43)
So ⁓ what's your own pre-speaking ritual, your own personal ritual?
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:38:50)
Well, one of those, the Power Woman Pose, and ⁓ I have another one if you really want to raise your energy, because ⁓ usually I I need that. ⁓ because it sometimes now it's like six PM my time, so it's already the end of the day. ⁓ So you'll find it in my book, but I like to jump and say affirmations. So really really jumping and then stretching my my arms, ⁓ stretching my arms ⁓ up in the victorious position and ⁓ saying affirmations. I'm ⁓ I'm
Erin Patten (00:39:09)
Okay.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:39:19)
Ready, I'm energetic, I'm amazing. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:39:23)
Yes. Okay, I love that. ⁓ And ⁓ one word for the woman you are now versus the girl in that Serbian classroom.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:39:36)
That's a good one. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:39:42)
In one word, okay that's ⁓ that's not easy, maybe ⁓ maybe ⁓ maybe a sentence. Well do your thing, ⁓ show up, speak up. ⁓ Doesn't matter what what other people say.
Erin Patten (00:40:01)
How it's fearless.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:40:01)
Let's see. ⁓ Yes. ⁓ Absolutely. Thank you for joining me. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:40:04)
⁓ That was the first thing that came to my mind. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:40:11)
Thank you. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:40:14)
Perfect. ⁓ okay. What would you whisper to yourself today, like ⁓ excuse me, the day you were defending your PhD? So if you were, you know, your coach self, what would you whisper to that woman who was defending her PhD that day?
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:40:34)
Definitely you've got this ⁓ and ⁓ something that afterwards I realized is that ⁓ nobody knows your topic and your thesis better than you do.
Erin Patten (00:40:45)
That part. That part. No one knows your truth better than you. So who better to speak it than you? What a beautiful note to leave us on. ⁓ Alexandra. This was a fantastic conversation. I needed this. I'm sure our audience members needed this. I would love for you to just drop here ⁓ how folks can get in touch with you, how they can work with you, if you have any offerings for them, maybe the book or something, just let us know.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:40:47)
Yeah. ⁓
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:41:13)
Definitely. So you can find me on LinkedIn with Alexander Plazinich PhD. You can visit my website ⁓ and you can get my freebie. So three first steps to prepare for the the public speaking. ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, I hope you you definitely ⁓ practice those. ⁓
Erin Patten (00:41:33)
Yes, awesome. ⁓ And for all of you who have stayed tuned to us all the way to the end, ⁓ I'm so grateful for you. And I hope that you're able to take something positive away from this message to be fearless, to live in your truth, to actually exercise and practice that truth speaking and that truth seeking and that fearlessness. It's actually a practice. Just like we've been conditioned over time to live in fear, we now need to condition ourselves to live ⁓ out of fear.
To live with no fear. So this was such an inspiring and ⁓ transformational and necessary conversation for me. And I hope that you all benefited from it as well. And if you're interested in learning more about me, I am across social media at I Am Erin Patton with my podcast, with my hair products, Raw Beauty. ⁓ I always show these here. ⁓ the hibiscus petal oil at rawbeauty, rabeauty.co. ⁓
⁓ And of course, the Meta Business Millennial Podcast is here for you most every week, if not every week, with guests, with me, sometimes solo, with multiple people. So, you know, I just love for you to just stay in touch with me ⁓ as, you know, as you go along your journey. ⁓ And again, thank you so much, Alexandra, for being on the show. ⁓ Awesome. And much love and light to you all out there. Peace.
Aleksandra Plazinic, PhD (00:42:53)
Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.